Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Carl look at the pretty eels and flowers, and the progressive aspects of Shallan’s artistic skills. This week, we get to hang with both Kaladin and Shallan as the next highstorm approaches, and I get to snarl fruitlessly at Tyn. Again.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 31: The Stillness Before
Point of View: Kaladin, Shallan
Setting: Bridge Four’s Barracks; the Caravan
Symbology: Pattern, Vedel, Ishar
IN WHICH an epigraph is ominous; a patrol is cheered, resentment is overcome, stew is eaten: Teft has succeeded! A strange ardent is shooed away; Kaladin unknowingly senses the highstorm’s approach; Shallan learns sleight-of-hand tricks, and is wryly commended not to use colorful metaphors whose meanings are unknown to her; firemoss makes an appearance smoke; Tyn outlines her plans for corrupting Shallan, and again assumes that the resulting blushes are proof of an easy, sheltered life; the warcamps are sighted; Tyn grants a few trickles of information about events in the wider world; and the caravan camps for one last night, awaiting the highstorm.
Quote of the Week:
“Back when we were bridgemen.” Pitt raised a hand to his head. “Storms, that seems like a different life. I couldn’t think rightly during those times. It’s all hazy. But I remember being glad when your crew was sent out instead of mine . I remember hoping you’d fail, since you dared to walk with your chin up… I—”
“It’s all right, Pitt,” Kaladin said. “It wasn’t your fault. You can blame Sadeas.”
“I suppose.” Pitt got a distant look on his face. “He broke us right good, didn’t he, sir?”
“Yes.”
“Turns out, though, men can be reforged. I wouldn’t have thought that.” Pitt looked over his shoulder. “I’m going to have to go do this for the other lads of Bridge Seventeen, aren’t I?”
“With Teft’s help, yes, but that’s the hope,” Kaladin said. “Do you think you can do it?”
“I’ll just have to pretend to be you, sir,” Pitt said. He smiled, then moved on, taking a bowl of stew and joining the others.
I love this interchange. Is that, maybe, a hint that Pitt has been, ah, broken, in such a way that he might have cracks where a spren could fit? That would be cool. And unexpected. (I’m still hoping for Sebarial, though.)
Commentary: This chapter has so many little things in it. Nothing really big happens—just lots of small stuff. Loose ends, light references, small set-ups… so this commentary will probably be the same. It is, after all, the bit where we’re teetering at the top of this particular plunge; Part 2 is nearly complete, and the next few chapters will be the avalanche. This chapter sets the first few stones rolling.
Let’s start with Teft. Long, long ago—back in Chapter 2—Teft was tasked with finding forty men, the best he could find, who could be trained as leaders for the twenty squads of former bridgemen. No one was optimistic about it, but it had to be done, so he did it. Here we are, six Rosharan weeks later—thirty days—and he’s done it. Because he’s just that good. Also, Teft seems to have disappeared on this particular evening; we’ll find out where he went in a couple of months. Heh.
Completely unrelated to anything else, a couple of celestial phenomena are noted: Taln’s scar, which is apparently a swath of red stars, and Reya’s Tear. Taln we know; it seems reasonable that a cluster of red stars would be named for the Herald who was most prone to death-or-glory battles. Reya, on the other hand, is a complete unknown. According to the good folk over at the 17th Shard, WoP is that Reya was an important female; WoB is that she was not Cultivation’s holder. But she shed a very famous tear, so the brightest star in the night sky is named for it. One wonders, of course, if this is simply one of the other planets in the system, and if there is some connection between Reya and that planet… but we don’t know yet. Worldbuilding FTW.
And Kaladin can sense something, mostly a feeling of the air being “too something,” which he finally attributes to the approaching highstorm. Question: Does he ever get that sense again before a highstorm, or is there something special about this one? (Which, well, there is, sorta.)
Meanwhile, Shallan is busy learning to be a con woman, of a sort: she’s trying to swap spheres without making any noise. I don’t recall that she ever uses this skill later on, though. Tyn, of course, is working on various ways to use, abuse, and corrupt Our Girl, which I no longer find so amusing as I once did.
So here’s what really rankles me about Tyn, and a zillion real-life people just like her: she assumes that anyone with actual standards must be hopelessly naïve, foolish, inexperienced, and sheltered. As such, from her angle, they are suitable targets for mockery and for either dismissal or corruption, and that it’s entirely her right to go ahead with that corruption if she happens to feel like it. As if she’s somehow doing them a favor by smearing them with her own level of filth. Gah. (Yes, I’ve had personal experience. Don’t ask. There are several very good reasons I don’t use certain words—only one of which is that it’s much more challenging to find words that express what I mean instead of relying on vulgarity for emphasis.) Anyway, Tyn says things like, “Dear, I’m going to do my very best to corrupt you,” and I want to beat her severely. Shallan already carries enough guilt for what she’s actually done; she doesn’t need a bunch of petty muck hung around her neck, dragging her down and compromising all the values she has left.
Well, Tyn will find out her error soon enough, I guess, though the realization will be… short-lived. Also: she’s a firemoss addict.
I’m trying to decide whether she was being clever or just petty with the whole “I know something about your country you don’t know” business. Perhaps both; if you can’t tell by now, I’ve decided that I thoroughly dislike Tyn this time through the book! In any case, she doles out a lot of dribs and drabs that, for all their surface consequence, turn out to be part of a much, much deeper game than she realizes. The chaos in Jah Keved isn’t just random assassination and petty bickering; it’s all been orchestrated for reasons of Cosmere-level significance—even though the one orchestrating it doesn’t understand the real level of importance.
There’s a highstorm coming tonight, and Events will follow.
Stormwatch: There’s a highstorm coming tonight… Check in with Carl next week to see if there’s another countdown scribble. Or, you know, chitchat about any other interesting things that might happen.
Sprenspotting: The only mention of spren is this one:
Some of the stars moved—starspren, nothing to be surprised by…
Somewhere or other, I saw some speculation that the “starspren” were actually satellites, but I’m not buying it. Elsewhere, they’ve been described as forming patterns between the earth and the clouds (which in that scene were blocking the stars), so I think they’re just spren. Starspren, that move around in the night sky. Maybe, like stars, they move around all the time but you can only see them at night, or maybe they only come out to play at night; in any case, I like the concept of starspren. It would be cool if they’re the counterpart to highspren as (we’ve theorized) windspren are to honorspren and creationspren to Cryptics. So say I, anyway.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?:
He did catch Rock shooing away a lanky man in an ardent’s robe.
“What was that?” Kaladin asked, catching the Horneater as he passed.
“That one,” Rock said. “Keeps loitering here with sketchbook. Wants to draw bridgemen. Ha! Because we are famous, you see.”
Kaladin frowned. Strange actions for an ardent—but, then, all ardents were strange, to an extent.
Well, I just discovered (because I had to do my research before saying it’s unconfirmed) that this has indeed been confirmed to be Nazh! So this is how he got the drawings he sent to Khriss; the next question is… why did she want them? What importance is there to the tattoos of a bunch of former slaves-cum-bridgemen-cum-soldiers?
Heraldic Symbolism: So here we have Vedel and Ishar. Hmmm. Vedel is usually associated with Healing in some way, or with clarity of vision. On a guess, I’ll peg her for the healing that’s been happening with the bridgemen. Ishar… I have no idea. Pious/guiding, Priest, sinew, Bondsmiths. Help me out here, people. I’m clueless. Maybe the-ardent-who-might-be-Nazh? That’s all I’ve got.
Just Sayin’: “Drynets.” I haven’t worked on it, because it’s not my thing, but I suspect this is one of those in-world expressions that authors put in just to drive us crazy. We all know it’s supposed to have some kind of terribly vulgar meaning—driving those who are so inclined to decide what they think that meaning is. Sanderson has a fascination with the various kinds of foul language people can use, and he actually works on coming up with profanities and obscenities that fit the culture. Which is pretty funny, considering he himself doesn’t tend to use the ones common to our culture.
(If you are unaware of the difference between profanity, obscenity and vulgarity, you should fix that. Just so you know what you’re doing when you do it, and all. They really are three distinct things.)
Well, enough of that. Join us in the comments below, then join us again next week, when Carl will see us through this highstorm to… something we’ve been expecting. Cue the ominous music.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She enjoys literature, music, science, and math; she spends her time reading, writing, doing laundry, driving children to and from school, and homeschooling. Also, she must get those Hugo nominations sorted this week! Have you done yours yet? Words of Radiance came out in 2014. Just sayin’.
Szeth told Nale that his gods are the spirits of the stones, the sun and the stars. So this gives credence to the concept of starspren (WOR, pg 1063, Kindle version).
I’ll admit to not understanding spren as much as other people seem to, but I can’t figure out why starspren make sense. Spren seem to manifest near the thing that they are attracted to. So for that reason starspren don’t make sense to me, because if they are attracted to the stars, then they should be near those stars, not just in the atmosphere on a single planet. And if spren can’t/don’t manifest outside of Roshar, then they can’t be near the stars. Perhaps it’s a misnomer and the Rosharan people just call them that for lack of a better term?
That ‘men can be reforged’ line was going to be my quote of the week as well. That is the entire summary of The Stormlight Archive right there.
As for ‘Drynets’, that sounds like something men at sea would say if they had been away from women for a very long time. Not that I am quite sure what it means either.
This is a nice little chapter, and a welcome breath for the plunge from what is about to happen – on a first read I didn’t appreciate that as much as I do now, because I didn’t know what was coming (in hindsight I should have, but it was still part 2, how bad could it get? And now I facepalm. )
Poor Tyn (not really). Doomed to a tragic fate because she’s right about Shallan being naïve, but oh so wrong about assuming that it runs deep. Interesting how so often people in Stormlight make this same mistake, of someone either has a flaw absolutely or not at all. Why no Tyn, turns out someone can be naïve about stupid little things and still take care of themselves!
I agree about the starspren likely just being spren and not satellites – nothing really seems to suggest that yet (although it’s definitely a possibility, since we know space tech can exist).
@2: Since they’re the concept of stars, maybe they are in the atmosphere – they are as close as possible to the stars that they can be while still being part of Roshar? It’s poetic in a sense – they’re still tied down to the planet like its own people who don’t have the ability to travel into space (and the stars).
I think “drynets” comes from a fishing culture. So having dry nets is a very bad thing, thus becomes a form of curse. Maybe shortened from an original usage of “May you be cursed with dry nets!”
feistykitty @5 – Given Tyn’s reaction to Shallan’s use of the term, I have to think it has a far more vulgar meaning than that – most likely something that would fit well within the definition of “obscenity.” But I’m still not going to try to manufacture a meaning for it; I tend to doubt if Brandon even has that. I think it’s just something to make us ask questions. :D
It is not surprising that some worldhoppers are interested in proto-radiants like Kaladin. One of his lesser appreciated aspects (even he doesn’t appreciate it) is some artistic talent. After all, he was commissioned by Wit-Hoid-Dust to learn to play the magic flute (his lack of appreciation for the gift led to its loss). He is also the one who designed the Bridge 4 Glyphs. Perhaps Khriss wishes to examine that side of him, and may see more significance in those drawings than we now appreciate.
The appearance of Ishar as a heraldic symbol may be due to the guidance that Kaladin exercises over the bridgemen in their new role as honor guards under his command.
I like the explanation Mental Floss gives:
I wonder where Hoid’s flute is going to end up. I kind of want Kaladin to just come across it as he travels to his home in book 3.
Or it might be gone forever, but that feels like a waste.
Shallan comes across a flute. Is this the same one?
I wish I had a little better idea what Khriss and Nazh are up to. It sounds like they are working with Hoid, but I am not even clear on that.
Khriss is a woman…if I recall. What gender is Nazh?
@2 – You seem to be assuming an understanding of the universe that is congruent with our real life, contemporary scientific understandings. From the perspective of the Rosharans (who are the ones naming things), “Starspren” may simply be named as such because they are visible way up in the sky, during the night, moving around and being drawn to (from the perspective of those on the planet) the stars. Or perhaps they resemble stars enough that people adopted the name as such. Do we have an indication that Rosharans understand stars as immense burning balls of gas bajillions of miles from the planet one is on?
@9, 10 – huh, can’t believe I didn’t make that connection – Amaram has a flute connection, no? What are the odds that it found its way to him since he was so intimately associated with Sadeas, who would have had the bridge-camp tossed for anything important/valuable after selling the bridgemen?
as for “drynets” – I tend to agree with Wet that this is probably something Brandon just pulled out without (maybe) having a firm definition in his own mind (beyond knowing that he wanted it to be something Shallan, upon finding out what it meant, would feel squeemish about). To me, based on the reaction and its usage, what made the most sense was some sort of male profilactic or birth control device (a rosharan condom, if you will) that makes sure things are “kept dry” or that “dry-fire” is occuring. Such a term could easily become used as a either obsenity/profanity/vulgarity, depending upon the theological/social/cultural mores that are at hand. Given Shallan’s general squimishness with any and all matters sexual, it would fit as extremely vulgar to her sensibilities.
IMO, Tyn was not trying to be clever or petty when she said “I know something about your country you don’t know.” Rather, I think she was trying to impress Shallan with her importance. In Tyn’s mind, she is trying to make herself seem more important that she is. She tries to pass herself off to Shallan as somebody who is important because Tyn knows people (the “I will introduce you to people when we get to the war camp” [not an actual quote — just the idea of something Tyn said to Shallan].
Unfortunately, once a con, always a con. Tyn could not help herself by exagerating her importance. This is probably part of her personality that she needs an “apprentice”. Shallan quickly comes to realize that Tyn was not important/influencial in hte Ghostblood’s circle.
Is firemoss supposed to be tobacco in RL? If not, does anybody know what the RL equivalent of firemoss would be?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Firemoss sounds a lot stronger than tobacco, and more potentially dangerous.
Firemoss: we know it can cause euphoria and suggestibility in the user, and is highly addictive. I agree with Zen – it’s probably much stronger and more dangerous than tobacco. It does have medical uses, but it’s so addictive it’s considered a last resort.
“Rather, I think she was trying to impress Shallan with her importance.” Isn’t that rather petty?
Flute: Shallan didn’t actually find Amaram’s flutes, she just heard about them, IIRC. Still, there’s a reasonable chance that if it was noticed by anyone actually cleaning out the barracks, it might have found its way to him. On the other hand, there’s a fair chance it’s still there in the barracks, or was thrown away. :(
I’ve never really considered the differences between profanity, obscenity and vulgarity, but after thinking about it for a bit what I came up with is basically what @8 said. I assume then that context is just as important as the actual words? I try to avoid that language (especially after hearing my oldest daughter repeating some vulgarity in the exact tone of voice I use, back when she was a toddler), but it’s always good to have a better understanding of things. :)
I do have some guesses about what “drynets” might mean and why got the reaction it did. I’m not sure what that says about me. :-p In any case, I think it might be on the border between obscenity and vulgarity, and it would also matter who was saying it. I can’t think of any religious aspect that would make it profane. Interesting to consider.
Firemoss struck me a bit like opium in how it’s presented as being used in the world, especially with how it was seen a century back and further.
As for the flute, I checked and yeah, Shallan heard about them and reacted but we never got a chance to see them. I’m not sure if it’d be better for them to be in Amaram’s collection or not: on one hand I’m sure the flute can get from there to someone else pretty easily (Amaram is taking a pretty important character with him at the end of the book so…), but if it was left behind there’d be the chance of someone just finding it. I’m pretty sure though we never see a flute like it in WoR – Kaladin even noted it’s wood was strangle looking, almost black in coloring, so I’m sure it would have been noted.
By the way, on a complete tangent, I have some steelhunt codes from the latest book tour. If anyone needs one, I can share.
Heraldic Symbolism
This chapter is tough. Kaladin is doing some guiding, as in counseling Pitt. Pretty thin, I know.
There is a hint in Dalinar’s last vision that Kaladin is eventually going to be chosen as Honor’s champion against Odium’s champion (kind of like Rand vs Ishy). Perhaps Khriss has some foretelling that Honor’s champion would be found among the bridge crew and has asked Nazh to provide drawings.
The star spren sound like meteors.
So, you guys should all go to Brandon’s website as soon as you can – major announcement of some exciting things, including a major edit to a certain powerful scene in Words of Radiance for an upcoming edition go check it out here: http://brandonsanderson.com/three-stories-in-new-formats/
I always figured that drynets was related to sex. Like they went to port and couldn’t catch a girl (so net really means lady bits).
22. jeremyguebert
I just read that. Is there a way we can get that altered scene, without having to repurchase the book?
23. AyeJaySedai
aye
@22 Thanks for the heads up! I now feel I need a new copy of the book. I wonder if they are going to do updates for the audiobook verisons with the release of paperback. The joys of owning multiple formats.
~
Something about Tyn always felt a little malicious about her interactions with Shallan. I never really liked it. Especially these scenes.
Random thought: I wonder if Amaram has Hoid’s flute now…? I sorta hope we see that flute again.
Given that we know that Brandon has plans for the Mistborn timeline to eventually get to space; I couldn’t help but wonder as well if the Starspren were satellites or spaceships. It made me wonder about the big picture timeline for all the cosmere books. Like this clearly happen after Mistborn and Warbeaker but how long after? Also what’s the time difference between Warbeaker and Mistborn? Before or after Emperor’s Soul? How old is Hoid anyway? How does worldhopping affect how a person ages? Can you go hundreds of years forward in time by worldhopping? What about going back in time? Does time pass the same on Roshar as it on Sel or other worlds?
So many questions! Oh and back to the point:
I don’t discount that there actually starspren and the idea that they are “highspren” is cool. I wonder what order they would belong to and if they obey Honor interdiction about bonding with humans or if they would belong to Cultivation. Though as seen above I’m not ready to discount that some of those starspren might not be what they seem.
Peter Ahnstrom made it sound like that altered scene would probably be made available to us soonish. At least that was the gist of his comments on Twitter.
@22: Thanks for the heads up! Real interested in reading that changed scene now – I didn’t even notice it during my readthroughs of the book, but hearing how it originally played out…fits better. And of course it means we have something to look forward to later!
Hmmmm…for Heraldic symbolism, is it ever used for someone who may think they fulfill that role but don’t? Because I do think Tyn believes she is guiding Shallan and is quite serious in her mentor role – she just also does it because she enjoys being a mentor, and is in truth a bad influence even though she thinks of herself as being good for them. Pious doesn’t really fit, but then Tyn is mentoring Shallan who is pious so…? Also seems weak, but it’s the best I’ve got.
FenrirMoridin @27 – Thanks for the inadvertent reminder; I keep forgetting that the Heralds are sometimes chosen to reflect “the associated ‘madness'” – whatever that means. So perhaps Ishar’s “associated madness” is something to do with foul language (or, more likely, general debauchery), which could have to do with either Shallan’s cussing and/or Tyn’s avowed intent to corrupt Shallan. That makes way more sense than anything else I’ve considered so far.
I think I keep forgetting about the “associated madness” bit because we really have no clue what that list looks like, but it’s worth remembering.
Re: the changes to WoR… having read the revised section (thanks, Mark!), I’d say we’ll have a fascinating discussion when everyone has a chance at it. It may be that Tor will put the revised chapters, sections, or pages on line, and we can discuss it there; if not, we’ll certainly dig into it when we get to those chapters in the reread. If you want to discuss it here, it would probably be kind of you to either flag it with SPOILERS FOR THE REVISION or white it out. Or both.
Wetlander @28 you’re welcome even if it was inadvertent lol. I didn’t even know that about the “associated madness,” but that’s fascinating – I’m guessing we’ll know more about that with later books as we see the Heralds more and more (on the assumption that their aberrant behavior reflects that).
This is jumping ahead a bit, but Ishar’s associated madness being general debauchery could be it – looking at the Lhan Interlude it is presided over by Ishar and Paliah, and while there is guiding in that chapter, similar to here with Tyn it’s towards debauchery (although the ending of it is very pious so that could be why Ishar is there anyways).
Fenrir @29 – No, you wouldn’t have known about the “associated madness” thing; it’s from an email conversation I had with Peter a while back. They haven’t really talked about it anywhere, I think in part because the madnesses haven’t become part of the story yet. I assume eventually that will come into visible play, and as we learn more, we’ll be able to look back and see it foreshadowed in these early books. The list of the madnesses exists only within the confines of Team Sanderson’s private files, to the best of my knowledge – and it may not exist there in full form, for all I know. I don’t know, either, whether they’re associated with the Ten Fools, or any other Tens… Roshar seems to have a gracious plenty of those!
@31 – Say whut?
@32: Weird spam unpublished at 31 :)
Wetlandernw @30: Ahhhhh I see, fascinating – I love little touches like that, and it’ll give me more
excusesreasons to reread the Stormlight Archive.Not use I’m happy about such a major edit. I get that it may have been needed but wonder how to handle it for those who don’t read blogs and forums. Will that chapter be re-printed at the start of Book 3?
Maybe in book 3 Kaladin will think about what happened, and what he thinks about it.
@35 & 36 – I’m pretty sure they’ll find a way to let people know when they pick up Book 3, because Team Sanderson knows there are those who will read without following all the online fandom. It may be that they’ll do one of the things you two suggest: include the changed text in book 3, or present it in someone’s POV; at the very least it will be talked about in the foreword or acknowledgements. My best guess is that he’ll talk about it up front, and include the changed text in the back, and probably draw attention to it in either a Kaladin or Szeth POV. But I’m just guessing; that’s what I’d do (if I were anywhere nearly creative enough to come up with something like this in the first place, which I’m not, so… don’t mind me). I’m at least reasonably confident they won’t just leave it hanging for those who bought the first edition and don’t want to buy another copy just for the changes on five pages. They are significant changes from one perspective, and minor from another. They don’t change much of what happened, but for those of us heavily invested in how the magic works, the change to how it happened is important.
About the changes….
For me, Kaladin not killing Szeth falls better within the characterization we have been given of him so far. He has jungled all his life as to whether he can kill to protect. His father’s teachings were strongly against it, but Kaladin never truly believed in them until he says his Third Oath. Going on and killing Szeth simply because he could was, in a way, out-of-character. The army was safe. Szeth was not an immediate threat to someone Kaladin swore to protect. His progression as a Windrunner has left me to believe the only instance he can go on and kill someone is if this individual is actively trying to kill another person or openly does evil. Szeth was not doing either.
With this in mind, I felt Kaladin killing Szeth was no better than Adolin murdering Sadeas. In fact, it was the exact same thing. Both murdered an individual to remove a potential future threat. A real threat in both case, but not one currently engaged in active combat at the time of the murder.
However, it was clear when reading the original version of WoR that Kaladin killing Szeth was acceptable and a good thing whereas Adolin killing Sadeas was unacceptable and a bad thing.
I am thus glad for this change as it is more consistent with both Kaladin as a character and the story as a whole.
It also makes me wonder what this means for Szeth in the future… Essentially, he committed suicide. Suicide has to be against the First Oath of Radiants. I cannot imagine a twist of evvent where it does not. Killing oneself and succeeding (by this I mean not changing your mind in the process as Kaladin did) should prevent any individual becoming a Radiant providing this individual was lucky enough to be restored, like Szeth. I also know much of the fandom strongly believe Szeth is on his way to become a Skybreaker… This theory has always felt wrong to me and it feels even worst now. I couldn’t believe a twisted being such as Szeth who has broken every law in every country he has ever been simply to obey the precepts of his own religion could ever attract a spren. He would need a massive redemption arc to make it possible, one being spread over years of good work to atone his evils. Now, with his suicide in mind, I feel even less convince he should make it as a Radiant. Worst, as a reader, I do not want him to be one. His ascension would violate every preconcive idea I have made of the orders….
I would thus say, if Kaladin cannot kill Szeth because it would go against his character, then Szeth cannot become a Radiant because it would go against what they stand for, ie Life before Death. He gave up. He is not worthy. Radiants do not give up in the face of adversity. They break, but they still retain the will to fight and that is what makes them unique. If I am wrong about this, then I am in for a massive deception.
Has Szeth ever taken any of the oaths? Not to my knowledge.
While I would certainly agree that this new action is more consistent with Kaladin’s character, I am not convinced killing Szeth was contrary to Kaladin’s oaths to protect.
I feel even better about Adolin finishing off that eel Sadeas.
Szeth has not taken any oath, but neither did Kal when he tried to jump into the chasm and stops himself… The simple fact he killed himself should preclude him from a Nahel bond. He was broken, yes, but he did not rise up. He failed. He died. By his own hand. He does not have what it takes. All other Radiants have broken down, but all have managed to rise up. Szeth died. He is still alive by a huge twist of faith. Dying should remove him any attempt at a second chance, when it comes to Radiant business, but again, I may be reading too much into it. My negative feelings towards Szeth may be clouding my judgement.
As for Kaladin, I am not convinced it was contratictary either, but…
But Kaladin tried to have Elhokar killed because he considered he was a danger to the population. He considered his bad leadership and his bad decision making was endangering the life of people: a feeling strongly reinforced by the knowledge of Elhokar’s implication in Roshone’s arrival in Heartstone. All in all, Kaladin thought removing Elhokar would be protecting the people. He meant to kill the king for a deed not yet done, for future failures not yet arrived.
He came true in the end and realized his mistake. He realized he may not like Elhokar, he may despised him, but the man himself was not evil. He did not mean to be evil. He is just bad at being king.
He thus cannot kill Elhokar.
Now Szeth…. Szeth was a threat, but at the time of the fight, Szeth was not endangering anyone anymore. In fact, Szeth was a known criminal. To act honorably, Kaladin should have tried to capture him, to bring him to justice, to put him into questioning, but he never even tries. He mastered the whole fight, he was on top, but all he ever tried was to kill him. In the first version, he actually did. In the second, he stops himself, but he still let him drop to his death. He still does not do the morality right thing which would have been to take him, alive.
Adolin now… Adolin tried to have Sadeas dealt with legally. He did everything he could to remove the threat he posed through acceptable means. He failed. In part because of Kaladin, but let’s skip this. In the end, Adolin was left with no other resort then to kill Sadeas. He had no other options left.
Kaladin still had the option to capture Szeth alive. He completely over ruled him in the fight. In the second version, the minute Szeth unbonded his Honorblade, he could have taken him into custody, but no. He latch for the weapon. Arguably a sound choice, but still………
When you look at the event this way, what else is there to conclude that Kaladin (first version) is considered to have act more honorably than Adolin because the man he murdered was an acknowledged enemy of Alethkar, whereas Adolin murdered a greater criminal, but one not considered to be such by his society’s standards. Kaladin’s second version is better, but he still let Szeth falls to his death. He lets him die. In fact, he mortally wounded the man and say: “I will do no more because I feel pity, so I will not give you the grace of bringing in the killing blow. Instead, I will let you die by your own mean”. Is this better? Who is better? Why is Kaladin the hero and Adolin the bad guy?
Szeth and Sadeas were criminals. Known criminals. Kaladin kills one. Adolin kills the other. Kaladin did right, Adolin did wrong.
At least, the new version removes this conumdrum. Letting Szeth to die is not better by much, but it is more or less the same as Sadeas leaving Dalinar to die: an acceptable way to dispose of an enemy, according to the Alethi.
Weird.
Don’t forget that Kaladin essentially had the choice between grabbing the Honorblade or Szeth’s body – he didn’t have time to do both. Syl was rather forcefully demanding that he get the sword; it was vital not to lose that.
So here’s your question: Should Kaladin have tried to capture the Assassin, who had abandoned his powers and clearly wanted to die, or should he have tried to secure that Blade so that those unregulated powers would not be acquired by whatever random person might find it?
This is very hard to argue, when I have not seen the revised text yet.
But I would not use Alethi law or custom to decide what is honorable. That does not seem to matter much to the spren, except possibly for the Skybreakers. We need to decide those cases on their own merits.
I could have justified killing Szeth, but the reasoning is too similar to killing Elhokar. Different, because Elhokar was not trying to kill people, but still similar in spirit.
But protecting people, and letting gravity have its way on the guilty are two different things. Also, able to defeat, and able to capture are entirely two different things, especially a mile in the air.
On my reread I wondered about a description in between Kaladins conversation with Pitt: “Nearby, someone had hung a few distinctive suits of armor on the barrack walls. They were carapace helms and breastplates, attached to the leathers of common bridgemen.”
I wonder how Shen reacted to that? Could he have tolerated that? Or would he have asked to be allowed to remove the parshendi bits from the wall?
I fail to see the lack of honor on Kaladin’s part in killing Szeth when he had suddenly ceased to defend himself. Szeth remained an extremely dangerous person who could revert to his ‘normal’ behavior given the opportunity. Remember, he was still trying to find and kill Dalinar, whom Kaladin was commissioned to protect, during that fight with Kaladin in the sky. Moreover, keeping a surgebinder under control is hardly a straightforward task even if he allows himself to be captured. Nonetheless, the belated change in the fight narrative is understandable. The original killing of Szeth involved his being fatally pierced by Kaladin’s sprenblade which would burn out the eyes and remove the soul. Having some fabrial which could undo such a seemingly irreversible result is a bit of a stretch. In the new scenario, apparently, a rock smashes into Szeth who then falls unconscious to the ground from a great height. That is certainly enough to kill him, but not to immediately remove his soul (the rock, presumably, killed him since his honorblade appeared immediately and was grabbed by Kaladin). Nalan’s resurrection fabrial then has a less impossible task. While having the high/everstorm debris kill Szeth may be an improvement over the original narrative in terms of providing a better scenario for Nalan’s revivification of Szeth, it is not needed to salve Kaladin’s conscience. The author’s late change, however, suggests to me that the next book will be Szeth’s, as originally planned.
Honestly, I am all for changes in Elantris, because that stuff really didn’t hang together properly.
But I am against the change to WoR. It is, indeed, comparable to those other highly-publicized and loathed changes to a beloved movie classic ;). Since whiting out is so finicky on Tor.com I won’t say more, but I will just mention that I fdon’t see Adolin as a bad guy at all. He elimated a clear and present danger. The timing may not be the best, but… there was no guarantee that the Kholins would have survived Sadeas’s next murder attempt or Alethi in general the power struggle that he fully intended to re-ignite by his own admission.
Luck can only stretch so far, if an author is writing a psychologically believable story. Villains getting captured alive so that they can break out and kill thousands of nameless victims, who don’t really matter, is for the comics and why I never could get into franchise superhero ones. Also why I dropped “The Heroes” series after the first season like a hot potato.
FWIW, I don’t think the reason for the changes had anything to do with honor or Kaladin’s justification for killing Szeth. It’s all about the magic and how it works, and the bit about not killing him was just to rationalize it.
Sorry, double post. Probably an artifact of using my phone… not very used to that interface for this purpose. :(
I guess my whole point was not to state I thought Kaladin acted dishonorably. I, personally, do not think he did, in either version. Szeth deserved to die. However, I do think, in the context of SA, it is quite a stretch to have Kaladin’s actions being labelled as honorable whereas Adolin’s clearly aren’t.
I believe most of my issues sprouts from comparing two similar acts. Kaladin killed Szeth. Adolin killed Sadeas. Both Szeth and Sadeas were murderers and threats. Both were dangerous beings needing to be dealt with. Both were killed by individual having sworn to protect Dalinar: Kaladin out of obligation, Adolin out of love.
Clearly, still in the context of SA, Kaladin acted honorably as Syl wholeheartely supported him. Clearly, Adolin acted dishonorably as his actions most likely precludes him from ever becoming a Windrunner (I recalled reading this somewhere, but I do not recall where. It could have been a WoB or in the fandom, so I apologize if I am using unverified information to state my point), not that I think he would ever fit as one, but I am just stating it.
How is one killing of one villain honorable whereas the other isn’t? Because he first murder happened through an epic fight in the sky with an elegant living Blade while the second happened in a dark dusty tunnel with a knife? This is where I have issues. I have no issues with Kaladin, in either versions, though I think the second one makes more sense as if Kaladin does not kill Szeth, then my conumdrum disapear in part.
@41: I agree it may not have been possible to capture him, but what is honor? To answer your question, I would say to act with respect. So in letting Szeth die, Kaladin obliged his desire to die, he therefore respected him. Purely based on the definition of honor, this is how I am forced to conclude. Was it then more honorable of him to let Szeth die and grab the Honorblade or the reverse? The Honorblade is a threat not yet used, the same as Elhokar… So did he let Szeth die for a weapon that could potentially be yield by an enemy? So he killed to protect from a threat that may never arise? Gee….. I am all mixed up :-(
@45: Villains getting capture, escaping and rampaging has been overused in the past, but I still think a captured villain put to questioning has some interest. Besides, he can still be executed. Nothing to say he would escape. I was mostly trying to figure out which would be the best course of actions for Kaladin as a character and I do think the second version works better, for me.
I didn’t have any time to read the comments, so I’m not sure if somebody has pointed this out yet…
BuT i really doubt creationspren are any sort of ‘counterpart’ to cryptics. Pattern disdains them – he calls them ‘useless things’ who ‘don’t do anything’ and have no purpose. They are just attracted to someone else’s purpose (Words of Radiance, chapter 78). I can see why you would think that, though.
Ishar, guiding – Kaladin, being an example to the others, or the bridgemen who will now go pass their training onto others.
I had an interpration of drynets the first time I read the book! I thought it was obvious… but maybe not, then. It is, um, sexual in nature.
EDITED
Gepeto @48
I admit that I need to reread both of the original death scenes (Szeth and Sadeas) to get a better grasp of the two situations. I’ve been waiting for this reread to advance to the relevant chapters to do so.
And I’m gonna retract what I said here (and deleted) until I do. In any event, @41, 42 and 44 summed up my thoughts on the subject.
BTW – y’all are getting pretty spoilery. Doesn’t bother me, just sayin’.
kei_rin @25
I believe there’s a Cosmere timeline somewhere out there in cyberspace, but I don’t have a reference handy. At the very least, it’s been discussed in the 17th Shard
threadsblack hole.Worldhoppers can do *something* to prevent aging. Not all of them do, though. There’s WoB on that, and evidence Demoux aged between Scadrial and Roshar.
You are right. Kaladin and Szeth were engaged in fight to the presumaly death. Why? Because Szeth threatened Dalinar. When Kaladin intervene, Dalinar was flying into the sky to a sure death while Szeth was about to slay Adolin. He saves Dalinar and prevents Szeth from killing Adolin by confronting him. We can agree Szeth was posing an immediate threat to people Kaladin has sworn to protect. However, Kaladin was not acting out of self-defense. He did not have to engage Szeth. He could have walked away and say I won’t play a hand in this. Now this would have gone against his oaths, but still the opportunity was there. There is no self-defense in the Kaladin fight scene, not that I can see.
However, the same could be said about Sadeas. He had been uttering threats to Adolin, promising he would everything he could to destroy his family and more importantly, his father. It is only after he has said those words that Adolin lunged for him. Adolin wanted to walk away in the scene. It is thus safe to assume that without Sadeas tyrade on how he planned to undermined his family, even now he was proven wrong, Adolin would not have lashed at him. Had Sadeas managed to kill Adolin, he would have acted in self-defense as he was clearly jumped on without any more preambule.
Both Szeth and Sadeas were threats. The difference was Szeth was engaged in combat at the time whereas Sadeas wasn’t. We can thus ask ourselves the question: to act honorably or to do the right thing, does one need to wait for the known self-acknowledged threat to get down to physical business to remove it? Is it more honorable to let Sadeas walk free knowing he will act and wait for casualities to arrise before taking him out, waiting for an opportunity to fight him in open combat (which is essentially what the Kohlins have been trying to provoke all through WoR and failed at)? All the while, innocents are dying… What is right?
So yeah, I am confused by all of this… I am not confused by Kaladin as I do think his actions are warranted and justified. He did right. No questions there. He may have done differently, but I do not fault him for it. I am more confused as to why, in light of what Kaladin did, Adolin is supposed to be this evil in becoming guy who has succombed to hate where he ended up doing the very same thing Kaladin is being acclamed for…. That is what is confusing me.
Gepeto @52
I revised my @50 about the same time you were writing your comment, so our exchange probably won’t make sense to those who read it later.
I’m thinking we might want to defer further discussion until we get to the relevant chapters in this reread.
More generally…
Re:
I’d say that’s a definite yes. At least in the case of someone breaking into my house and brandishing a weapon. To which I will respond, if at all possible. If the housebreaker continued behavior I felt was immediately dangerous to life and health, when faced with me deploying a weapon in response, then I wouldn’t hesitate to take the next step (as dictated by the specific circumstances). OTOH, if the housebreaker turned and fled, then no, not gonna shoot him in the back (for instance).
The situation with Adolin and Sadeas is more complicated because Adolin can’t prove Sadeas is up to something or get him convicted of a crime at this point, so it’s difficult to remove the threat by legal/ethically acceptable means. Again, I need to reread both of the original scenes to grok the circumstances and implications better. But I’m not of the opinion that the ends justifies the means.
It also feels awkward to compare them because, while there is time to wind down a bit from Kaladin’s act (and in regards to that, we get more with Szeth which sets up its own different moment), what Adolin does is a cliffhanger for book 3.
So the narrative use of the scenes reinforces a certain interpretation of them which is not necessarily what we’re supposed to take away from them – Kaladin’s act has a denouement to it, we see him get congratulated, etc. while Adolin’s is the very last we see of him in the book at all, and we
knowsuspect there will be negative fallout to the act.But I agree with Ways, I want to save more of this conversation for when we get to the relevant chapters – even though that means waiting over a year, the extra time will be good to absorb the changes more thoroughly (plus we’ll likely know the fallout since Stormlight 3 will possibly be out by then – Sanderson is shooting for that 2016 release, and there are 58 chapters, 10 interludes, and the epilogue in Words of Radiance to go).
@53: I have just read your edited comment. Apologized for keeping on bringing burning oil onto the fire… I am just a sucker for this kind of discussion: I’ll jump feet first each time I have the opportunity.
As for your analogy, I think it is not completely acurate. Sadeas obviously is a recurant house breaker. He has single-handly caused the death of 6000 men for the mere purpose of removing a polical threat. He is the investigator of an assassination attempt on Dalinar’s life. Sadeas has been keeping on directly trying to undermine the Kohlins: in other words, he keeps on trying to steal them. Over and over again.
Adolin cannot prove it, but Adolin has massive reasons to believe Sadeas would carry on his threats… because he had been doing so in recent history. He is up to something. He has been up to something for months. The facts speak for themselves. Does Adolin really need more incentive, more proofs? He has tried to remove the threat through legal means, but he can’t. Alethkar is built in a way criminals such as Sadeas cannot be brought to justice. What he did was wrong by all standards, but since he did not hold the knife that killed those 6000 soldiers, he cannot be held accountant to it. The Kohlins have thus tried to have Adolin duel Sadeas and beat him up. They failed. In part because of Kaladin, in larger part because of Elhokar’s bad temper. At the time of the encounter, Adolin is left with no legal means to deal with Sadeas. He has no other options. Either he kills him or he accepts to let him walk away knowing full well he will carry on his threats.
So what should he have done? Let Sadeas walk away because killing a Highprince is a forbidden crime and it goes outside the game they have all been playing? Ending feeling deep guilt when Sadeas’s plan unfold, people die because of it all the while he knew he had an opportunity to remove him?
My whole conumdrum falls back to Kaladin again… If we accept there is no telling is Sadeas threats were real or not, if we accept his pasts actions do not garanty his future actions despite him openly sharing his plans, then the same can be said about Szeth. Kaladin is thus wrong to kill Szeth (or to let him die) because there is no telling Szeth would have continue to carry on his mission now he has been beaten.
In other words, if Szeth deserved to die, then so did Sadeas. If Kaladin is right to have killed (or let him die, result is the same) Szeth, then so is Adolin. Adolin’s actions are not more darker then Kaladin’s. That’s my whole point.
If Szeth does not deserve to die, then Kaladin should have saved him because it would have been right. He can let Szeth die because it is the right thing. He agrees Szeth has to go, but he is not willing to be the killing blow. He won’t be the executioner. I am fine with this, but to work out this solution needs to imply Szeth deserved death.
Then, if Szeth deserved death, so did Sadeas and we go back again in circle….
Gepeto @48 (and others) – I think you’re reacting more to fan reactions/assessments than to what is actually in the book. At the moment, I can’t find a WoB specifically saying that the Windrunners wouldn’t take Adolin; only one saying that the Skybreakers wouldn’t, because he broke the letter of the law. And that same WoB says that there are other Orders who would think it was a very good thing. I think it’s just that a lot of readers think that killing Sadeas should bar Adolin from being a Radiant (or at least a Windrunner).
Barring a WoB to the contrary, I’d have to say I’m not so sure that Syl (or a “sister” honorspren) would disapprove, given the circumstance. Adolin’s purpose is to protect Dalinar, Elhokar, and ultimately Alethkar from Sadeas; I think it’s quite possible that he could have done so even as an already-bonded Windrunner. Just my opinion, of course, but there’s nothing in the book to say one way or the other.
FWIW, a significant point will come up in the next two chapters that may relate to this change, so I’ll wait and discuss it then… but I think it has a substantial bearing on why Brandon chose to make the changes.
@56 and all: I apologize for bringing in this discussion a year before its time. Brandon recent changes triggered many emotions in me pertaining those last two scenes. I am still trying to decipher where I stand in all this. I must admit it is very hard to partake what are facts, what is general gossip by the average fan and what is my own emotional response to both scenes.
I recall the WoB stating the Skybreakers would not take Adolin but other orders would such as Willshapers and Dustbringers (and potentially others, but those were what involved people asked about). I do not recall a specific WoB stating the Windrunners would not want him specifically because of his killing of Sadeas (they may not want him for other unsaid reasons though), which is why I stated so in paranthesis to make sure nobody would think I was using fandom comments as facts.
It is true the general reaction I have found in the average reader was to believe Adolin was bared from being a Radiant because of his actions. Many people believed his actions were triggered by Odium and he would thus fall into pure evil. These are, of course, simple fans opinions which until we read book 3, remain opinions. When it comes to Adolin, fans reactions are to either love him to the bone or think he will go evil or so I have gathered in my time on the fandoms.
I agree we have no clear indications as whether Windrunners would condamn his actions against Sadeas or not. He was protecting, but Adolin’s protection instinct is quite different than Kaladin. His is spurred out of love as opposed of duty for Kaladin. Adolin would not go to his wits ends to protect a lowly darkeye unless the threat is a direct one he can deal with readily (the prostitute), but he will keep on remembering the names of the fallen. Kaladin will rant on how he has failed and strive to do better next time, whereas Adolin will mourn those who died and swore to seek revenge (not to say Kaladin would not mourn nor seek revenge, but Kaladin has the tendency to focus more on the remaining living and on present time. Adolin does not blame himself for the Tower, he does not even blame Dalinar, he blames Sadeas. Kaladin would have blame himself if ever put in the same situation). Despite their similitude, Kaladin and Adolin are very different people. Windrunners would not want Adolin for reasons pertaining his personality, but I too do not think his sole action of murdering Sadeas would bar him. I guess we shoukd ask ourselves, if Kaladin had murdered Sadeas in the same circumstances, what would the outcome be?
Chapter 32? I went to reread it quickly. I cannot wait to see your significant point. Two weeks.
I imagine Syl would have talked him out of it, similar to how she stopped him with Amaram – in fact I think that is possibly the better parallel here, except that Adolin didn’t have a spren to try to talk him out of it.
FWIW, I don’t think anything precludes Adolin from becoming a Knight Radiant, but I’m not going to bet on it happening either. I will adopt the
lame and cowardlysafe stance of “wait and see.”The new text can be found on the 17th Shard website, Brandon’s ___ by Kelsier Kenobi. There are various editorial type changes and some significant ones. I was under the impression that Szeth’s death was the work of the storm, but it turns out to be a form of suicide after Kaladin cuts through his sword hand instead of dealing a fatal strike. Szeth deliberately severs his bond with the honorblade that causes the immediate loss of surgebinding power. Without such power, he is pulled earthward by gravity. Kaladin is instructed by Syl to retrieve the honorblade at all costs, and lets Szeth fall ostensibly to his death. He can’t find the body, however, and is uncertain as to Szeth’s fate. He is assured, however, that Szeth is powerless without the honorblade even if he has somehow survived. All in all, the new wording makes Szeth into a more sympathetic character and leads to the question, “Are all the remaining negative characters, Szeth, Amaram, Mraize, and Elhokar, going to become allies of Kaladin, Shallan, and co. in the struggle against the overwhelming evil that confronts them?”
@Gepeto
No apology necessary! You aren’t the only sucker for this type of discussion. I often must bite my
tonguefingers.But it wouldn’t bother me at all if we don’t go so far into gender politics in the storm cellar as we do elsewhere. That’s gotten tedious and distracting, IMHO.
@59: I for one do not think the new ending makes Szeth more sympathetic. He killed himself, a position I have a hard time to defend. He is thus not in my good grace as a reader, but this remains my personal opinion.
I doubt all negative characters will redeem themselves and end up working for the greater good. I personally believe Mraize and Amaram are after their own agendas. They may not turn out as bad as we initally though, but they will most likely not end up allies either. I don’t necessarily see Elhokar going through a redemption story arc either. He seemed rather incompetent and not overly smart. If he has not find out his path now at almost thirty, I somehow doubt a few days with Herdazians will make much of a difference, but again, that is my personal opinion.
@60: Gender politics in the storm cellar? Not a chance with me. These discussions tend to fall outside my areas of interest. I avoid them as they too often lead to negative angry postings as people get too emotional.
59. STBLST
I went looking for this transcription by Kelsier Kenobi, but I didn’t see it.
Can you be a bit more specific where it is?
Or did it possibly get taken down?
ZenBossanova @@@@@ 63 – Thread
“Brandon Tweaking Words Of Radiance” by Kelsier Kenobi, the post by WeiryWriter, #7 in the thread. Link here:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/23702-brandon-tweaking-words-of-radiance/?p=235882
FenrirMoridin @58:
IMHO, situations between Kaladin and Amaram and Adolin and Sadeas are fundamentally different.
The former was all about justice/revenge – as far as Kaladin knew Amaram wasn’t threatening or purposefully destroying anybody, leave alone his family or their whole society. There was nothing protective about Kaladin’s desire to kill Amaram.
By contrast, Adolin’s attack on Sadeas was all about protection. Sadeas had just laid out his plans to continue trying to exterminate Kholins and to further destabilise their society in the face of beginning Desolation to Adolin, and he had the bloody track record to prove the seriousness of his intentions. So, no, I am not sure that a honor spren would have stopped Adolin. His actions did come under the portfolio of “Protection”, IMHO.
I don’t get comparison between Sadeas and Elokhar either. Sadeas wasn’t a “potential” danger, but clear and present one, acting with malicious premediation. Elokhar just wasn’t good at his job.
Likewise, Szeth didn’t cease being a threat by becoming despondent. He was quite mad at that point and could have changed his mind again. As long as he had the Honorblade, he remained a huge danger. Even without it, he is a very experienced assassin with lakes of blood on his hands and with problematic motivations. So, yea, I am not sure why Kaladin should have gone put of his way to save him, unless we subscribe to the notion that non-main-character victims don’t matter.
I don’t have much to add on this chapter. I’ll note that “drynets”, as a curse from sailors, seems to have an obvious sexual connotation whose meaning seems quite clear to me. Which perhaps says more about me than I would wish. Anyway, I’m not elaborating on my guess/assumption!
“Also, Teft seems to have disappeared on this particular evening; we’ll find out where he went in a couple of months. Heh.” This doesn’t ring a bell for me; where did Teft go?
Re: Kaladin’s sense of the air being “too something” – which we tentatively attribute to the approaching highstorm – he also calls the air “stale”. Which makes me think of how the world often feels washed clean after a good rain, and also of how on Roshar it’s the highstorms that renew stormlight in gemstones. I wonder if the feeling of ‘staleness’ was Kaladin sensing the, let’s say, depleting mana levels since the last highstorm? Thus renewing the world’s supply of stormlight would make it feel ‘fresh’ again.
Re: Shallan’s sphere-swapping, I have a vague memory that she *does* use that skill again…somewhere. I’ll have to watch for it for the remainder of the reread.
Wetlander, re: your irritation with Tyn’s assumptions about Shallan…to be fair, Shallan *is* very naïve, easily set to blushing, and bound by some rather ridiculous cultural preconceptions like her safehand being covered (something which *does* come up as inhibiting her even when she’s covered by an illusion). And I honestly don’t see Tyn’s mockery of Shallan as bad-natured…more the good-natured ribbing you give to a friend. It’s clear enough to me that Tyn does see Shallan as her student and mentee – gifted but inexperienced and yes, sheltered. As indeed she is. Tyn’s sincere about wanting to mentor Shallan, and does a good job, such as it is, in training her. (Indeed, it will come up later – in dialogue with the Ghostbloods – that Tyn has a habit of mentoring students. One assumes she’s looking for some sense of genuine connection which her cons keep her from finding with most people.)
Where Tyn’s mistaken about Shallan is not in assuming her sheltered and uneasy about anything having to do with sex. It’s in assuming that she can’t be simultaneously sheltered and rather innocent in some areas without having also been through horrible trauma.
Kaladin makes the same assumption, but honestly, I find Kaladin’s dismissal of Shallan to be worse than Tyn’s underestimation of her.
On Ishar – pious, guiding – my first thought is starspren. Cause…stars guide us…and help us navigate…? Um….
Or because Kaladin and tyn are guiding and mentoring people? Um. Yeah.
Difference between obscenity, vulgarity, profanity – a little help, please? Dictionary.com seems to use obscenity and profanity as synonyms; in fact, one of the defs. of ‘profanity’ *is* obscenity.
64. jeremyguebert
Thanks
68. chaplainchris
I thought this was helpful.
“Profanity” is the use of something holy in a profane ( =not sacred) context; see also the third commandment. “Obscenity” is showing or speaking of something that ought to be private rather than public; a high proportion of obscenity is sexual in nature. “Vulgarity” means “common” – as in, uncultured, uncouth, in poor taste; see also “ten-year-old boy’s humor.” (Just kidding on that last; I know a lot of great ten-year-old boys. But the stereotypical kind of juvenile potty-mouth stuff is mostly just vulgarity.)
So basically, J.Dauro had it right @8:
On a completely unrelated topic, the Hugo nominations close tomorrow night! Get those ballots submitted! Get Words of Radiance in for a Hugo award! :D
Ok, having caught up with the comments:
I’m not excited about changing the text. Now I don’t have the real story – either in my very expensive HC or my not-so-expensive Audiobook. I don’t know, it bugs me. I trust Brandon, but it still bugs me. (After all, I trusted JK Rowling too, and then she released the ridiculous statement about how Harry and Hermione should’ve been together after all, making me wonder how well she remembers her own writing…and I’m sure that statement will irritate people, sorry!)
More substantively – Elhokar was/is an incompetent who nevertheless shows flashes of potential. For one thing, he recognizes his incompetence and he’s even asking for help. Kal refusing to help and deciding to help murder him instead…no way that’s anything but reprehensible, aside from the fact that he was sworn bodyguard of the king.
Adolin killing Sadeas is a gray area for me. I still don’t know what I feel about it. Sympathy, for one – Sadeas was odious in the extreme, lethal, and unrepentant. Indeed, he was gloating about how he’d never stop. Nevertheless, there was no formal declaration of war between their princedoms, nor had Sadeas been charged with any crime, much less found guilty of one. So from my perspective, Adolin murdered him.
It’s mitigated, for me, by the fact that we know Sadeas was a murderer, and employed assassins, and commited war crimes against the Parshendi (by our standards, if not by Rosharan ones), and atrocities against the bridgemen, etc.
There’s no question that Sadeas deserved to die (but cue Gandalf’s speech on that subject). It doesn’t follow that Adolin had the right to kill him. Which Adolin knows, since he’s tried (probably not very effectually, I’m afraid) to cover it up.
Kaladin killing/not killing Szeth in a fight is different, to me.
And yeah, lots of you said we should wait to discuss that stuff until later. Sowwy.
@70 thanks, and I’ll stipulate to those as being the original meanings of those words…though I think common usage has watered down those distinctions.
WinespringBrother @1 – interesting catch on Szeth worshipping the ‘gods’ of stone, sun, and stars. In my second read (just finished a couple weeks ago – I was trying to stay in pace with the reread, but the Brandon avalanches caught me up)…anyway, in my second read, that line made me think of Rock talking about the mountain gods/spirits that his people worship, and think that those mountains must likewise have spren. (A mountain spren worshipped as a god seems likely to be a rather impressive example of a spren, at that.)
@65: The reason I suggested Kaladin could have tried to capture Szeth was to offer a legal avenue to his actions. I was still working to compare the murder of both Szeth and Sadeas.
One of the reasons people react negatively to Adolin murdering Sadeas was due to the apparent illegality of his actions. From my point-of-vue, both Szeth and Sadeas were threats needing to be dealt with. Both were dangerous. Adolin was left with no other means to deal with Sadeas: he has tried the legal avenue to no avail. What else could the Kohlins have done? Nothing. They would have needed to endure Sadeas gloating, undermining them, potentially sending more assassins up until he made a mistake allowing them to prosecute him. How many casualities until then? Adolin thus killed Sadeas.
Kaladin had to make a similar reasoning. What to do with the Assassin in White? He chose to kill him or to let him die, which more or less equate itself, but Kaladin did not try the legal avenue. He did not try to capture Szeth and have him trialed. He went for execution. The thought of ending the fight differently never crossed his mind until the killing blow where he averted himself.
So on one side you have one character you cannot deal with his evil guy legally and goes for murder and on the other you have another character you could have try to deal with his evil guy legally, but never even entertained the idea.
If one reasoning is good for Adolin, then it needs to be good for Kaladin as well and thus I go back again in my endless circle.
@71: Is it morally right to let a known murderer walk away, free to slaughter more people after he professed his full intent to do so?
And Sadeas is a criminal. By all laws he is, except the Alethi laws are written in a way the culprit cannot be trialed unless witnesses attests for them. Nobody is going to denounced Sadeas. Everyone knows he did it, but as long as he does not openly admit it, they cannot prove him guilty. That does not change the fact he is.
I also believe his last speech was a war declaration. Had he been bold enough to state this in public, it would have been considered as such. He got careless because it was simply him and Adolin, a boy he had a hard time seeing as a grown man.
Adolin may not have had the legal right to kill Sadeas as no judges of law has ordered him to do so, but he had the moral right to act. I do believe Brandon stated in a recent WoB there was a legitimate moral ground that justified Adolin’s actions.
So, from my point-of-vue, both Kaladin and Adolin did not have the legal authorization to kill their evil guy. The Crown could have wished to have the Assassin in White captive. However, both had the moral right to do so. If we accept Kaladin was right to kill Szeth, then Adolin has to be equally right to do so. The major difference is Sadeas was Alethi and had powerful allies whereas Szeth was a foreigner with no friends. Szeth murder’s will thus be greated in acclaims whereas Sadeas’s will be greated in horror.
Isilel @65: We’ll have to agree to disagree then (although I think I’m in the minority here) – yes Sadeas is threatening them at the end when Adolin reacts, but to me the threat felt hollow. Oh sure he had the lie set-up and he was really going to try, but all throughout Words of Radiance we see Dalinar and everyone get better and better at dealing with him. Would he have continued to be a thorn in their side? Oh sure, and an annoying one to boot (especially to us readers). But the real danger would have been more assassination attempts and manipulation of information – both of which they’ve gotten better at handling. Also that danger still persists through Ialai but as Adolin doesn’t know that, I won’t hold that against him.
I don’t think Adolin killed Sadeas to protect his family – I think he killed Sadeas because Sadeas goaded him to his face and it was finally enough – Adolin was hurt, and confused about what his future would be (what with so many people he knew becoming Radiant) and not in a healthy state of mind.
Han Shot First!
Well, I’m finally caught up with the re-read since I’ve been in lurker mode. But for the best reasons. We have a new future reader! My daughter Nora Dusti-Anne was born on 2/17/15. Since she’s named after several fictional characters, I hope she enjoys reading like I do.
Now thoughts on what’s been going on:
1) Adolin killing Sadeas – @@@@@ Gepeto & Ways – Yes, Sadeas was a threat and a danger. But much like the police can’t do anything until a stocker takes physical action – the laws (of our world) would say Adolin did not act in self-defense. Our legal system would see the two fights in very different lights. Am I glad Sadeas is dead? Oh yes. But our laws see it in a much greyer zone than Kaladin & Szeth’s fight.
2) Tyn & Shallan: I have to say I’m glad Tyn at least gave Shallan the advice of “don’t stay with the Kolin’s”. It was good advice and it opened the door for our lovely interactions with Sebarial.
3) I will hold thoughts on Brandon changing things until I read the new text. But I am glad that if he made the change now vs. in 10 years. Guessing the first version caused some in-world issues while writing Book 3. As a few people have pointed out about Szeth’s resurrection.
4) … I know I had a few more items to say, but a sleep deprived brain is not pulling up whatever insights I had at 3 am.
Congratulations, Braig_Tug! We are excited for you!
Also, let’s keep in mind, the difference between legality, and what spren consider important. They are not the same thing at all.
“Also, let’s keep in mind, the difference between legality, and what spren consider important. They are not the same thing at all.”
This.
We have to keep in mind that Alethi law a) doesn’t necessarily line up with the priorities of Honor and Cultivation – and therefore, the spren – and b) Alethi law doesn’t necessarily line up with our own understanding of law, whatever country we inhabit. We can only evaluate the in-world legality of an action based on what we are given of Alethi law, so claiming that someone did something “illegal” can’t be based on our own laws.
That said, if we have an understanding of Right and Wrong as non-relative truth, we can make our own judgements of whether those actions were right or wrong. But the spren in general couldn’t care less about human laws; the one exception seems to be the Skybreakers.
Braid_Tug @76. Congratulations
It seems clear to me that Alethi law would disallow the killing of a notable, even with ample cause. This idea was already stated during a previous near-fight between Adolin and Sadeas, and is why Adolin guiltily removes the evidence linking him to the slaying. Alethi appear to distinguish between a direct slaying of a Lighteyes or notable, and the orchestration of such a slaying. The latter is considered ‘normal’ and acceptable – at least in high society. As to the atitude of spren, that may depend on their nature. Honorspren like Syl would presumably be critical since Sadeas did not present an immediate threat. Cryptics like Pattern might even be impressed with the combination of lies and truth that are involved in the killing. Truth – that Sadeas had already made 2 attempts at killing Dalinar/Adolin and represented a future real threat to them, and lies involved in the cover-up of that slaying.
Hmm. I still think that Syl (or other Honorspren) might have been okay with killing Sadeas, given the combination of his past actions and his immediate declaration of intent. Highspren, as we’ve been told, would object due to the overt breaking of a law. But consider Syl’s direct statement:
That was in context of whether or not she’d help Kaladin break out of prison, but it seems to be a generally-applicable concept. The question is whether she would think that killing Sadeas, presumably to protect the Kholin family (and perhaps Alethkar) made the action right – whether it was legal or not.
We might not consider it “honorable,” but I’m not so sure about honorspren. They just might. I suspect it would actually depend a lot on the mental & emotional state of the bonded person – is he acting out of sheer anger and frustration, or is he acting to protect others? Back on the training ground, as long as Kaladin was fighting for practice, to improve his ability to protect, he could use Stormlight freely. Once he lost his temper and was just out to beat Adolin, personally, on behalf of every lighteyes he’d ever personally hated, he lost it. He claimed he was practicing, but when Syl asked him, “Is that really what you were doing?” he couldn’t answer.
However… there are definite indications that Adolin was simply enraged by the continual taunts and the frustration of being unable to do anything legal about Sadeas, and was less interested in protecting than in just making him shut. up. Forever. So… maybe an honorspren wouldn’t approve. Dunno. But there are other spren far more pragmatic, who would simply think it well done and move on.
Re: Szeth breaking oaths via suicide. The only oaths that Szeth was bound by (that we know of) are those of a Truthless, as WoK explained. So, suicide would not be a violation of a Radiant oath since he presumably hadn’t taken them, but it is clearly stated that a Truthless is not allowed to take his own life. Nalan seemed to think that Szeth hadn’t broken any oaths, however, so perhaps there is enough of a distinction between actively killing himself and merely not preventing someone else from killing him? This seems tenuous, however, since if that was the case Szeth almost certainly would have allowed himself to be killed long before that.
Re: Kaladin breaking oaths via killing Szeth rather than taking him captive. Kaladin is still justified in this killing according to his oaths because he realizes that Szeth knows where the army disappeared to, while Kaladin does not. Szeth clearly demonstrates a sustained intent to find and kill Dalinar. Seems to me like a pretty clear case of a sworn bodyguard doing his job.
Re starspren: when reading of them for the first time, I thought they might be planets (or comets as Birgit already pointed out).
I would love if they are not spren but something “material” and the Alethi named it “spren” because … spren are a good explanation based on the scientific knowledge they have. (Satellites would work out in that respect as well, I just never thought of that :))
it would be in analogy of RL where “we” first thought our world was flat and the sun and stars moving around us and we made explanations to fit that expectation…
And OMG, the last few hours were annoying: I was reading all above comments offline … I will comment on the change of the scene when I know more about. But now that I know they change a major thing, I wish they would change a minor thing of chapter 33 as well – where I’m pretty sure the BetaReaders missed a mistake. ;) But I will wait on said chapter to point it out (I’ve waited several month already, I’ll manage to more weeks).
@74: Adolin wanted to walk away. In fact, he tried to walk away from Sadeas, but the later prevented him from doing so. Had Sadeas not threatened to destroy those he loves the most, he would not have lost it.
Now, we can also assume he may not have lost it had he been in a better mind frame at the time. We are, after all, dealing with a young man who has just lost all of his bearings regarding the world he knows all the while being physically injured and most likely stressed out. In other words, Adolin had started to crack before the encounter with Sadeas. Still, his motivation to kill him was sprouted for his threats to his family. To convince ourselves, we could ask the following question: “Had Sadeas threatened Adolin, just Adolin, would the later kill him as readily?”
@76: First congratulation on your daugther’s birth :-)
@76 and others:
For the rest, I do not think Adolin acted out of self-defense: his own life was not physically threatened, but he did act to prevent further arm being done to his family.
I also try not to judge his actions based on our laws but on Alethi. In our world, murder is condemnable, no matter the circumstances, that is not the case in Alethkar. Murder is acceptable, as long as you are not the one yielding the knife, which is why the Kohlins struggled so much to deal with Sadeas to begin with.
@81: Sure Adolin was enraged. He emotionally overflowed. I suspect he’ll be quite unstable in the next book in that regard. However, does this nullify the fact he bursted only after Sadeas layed out his plan to destroyed Dalinar, the individual he loves the most in the whole world? Does the fact he needed anger to go through with it removes the fact he deep-deep-down motiviation was not revenge nor justice, but love for a family he has sworn to protect?
Wow, if you put all of Gepeto’s comments together, it would be almost as long as Words of Radiance is!
Sorry. I tend to be talkative about issues I care about. I admit I can get carried away at times. Thank you for indulging me.
I have not the least doubt what Adolin did was illegal by Alethi standards. I am sure there will be legal repercussions for him.
But I doubt most spren care very much about that. What Adolin acting ion emotion? Sure.
But why? Because he knew Sadeas would kill again. He might have stopped him a few times, but it was going to happen again, and people would die. Adolin wanted to protect them. It is a very different kind of honor from the Skybreakers, or, probably, from the Windrunners, but it was an honorable desire. It makes him a little like Robin Hood, dealing with the Nobles, for the commoner.
But illegal? Oh yes, very illegal.
He is going to have a very bad day. But those are the kind of days that attract Spren.
@84: You mean Sadeas doing the exact same thing he’s done the entire time? It’s not like this is a new revelation, even to Adolin, who didn’t trust Sadeas since book 1. TBH, context-free there’s nothing I find wrong about Adolin killing Sadeas – as many people have pointed out, Sadeas is a scum-sucking monster that was just weakening the Alethi for his own stupid short-term self-gain – and Adolin in Part 3 almost got the ability to remove him as a threat politically (before Kaladin saved the attempt, then lost it anew). My problem is that I don’t see this as Adolin being resolved to kill Sadeas to protect his family – I see it as him reacting in anger and trying to stop/eliminate one of the things pushing at him. Adolin is emotional, but he also likes to think and consider – he may be able to move quickly in battle, but he also likes to take things slowly (he reminds me, just a bit, of Perrin in The Wheel of Time like that). I think book 3 will put him in a similar state to when he had his outburst to Dalinar in book 1 about the visions – he will regret how he initially acted but (in agreement with most of the people there) will probably retroactively decide that he was right, but then he’ll also see the negative consequences (again political fallout).
There’s a big difference, IMO, in Adolin when he is just driven by emotion and when he’s breaking under it, and this falls under the latter – but that’s just my interpretation, and for now it’s all theoretical because book 3 still isn’t out (why must it still be 2015?!).
beladee @82 – The one thing I’d point out is that Szeth has just realized, with no possibility of error, that he is not Truthless, and he never was. He is therefore not bound by any of the restrictions on Truthless, so he broke both of them in this scene: he gave up his Shardblade, and (depending on how you look at it) suicided. I’m not sure if refusing to fight, or even opening oneself to a deathstroke, technically counts as suicide, but even so. In a sense, he could be said to have committed suicide when he gave up his Blade at 6000 feet in the air, thereby losing all his Surgebinding ability.
Talkative? Who’s talkative? Do we do talkative around here?
::shifty eyes::
That’s actually what I like most about the changed scene – I know people like to look at it from how it’s different for Kaladin, but it really is more of a change for Szeth – him definitively doing the two things that he couldn’t do as Truthless, because he isn’t one. It makes the scene later between him and Nalan better for that reason.
A part of me almost wonders if that’s why Sanderson focused on Kaladin when he mentioned it in his blog, and only at the end included that bit about it being important for both characters. But that would be subtly misleading…
@Gepeto,
I am somewhat bemused that you keep referring to Kaladin killing Szeth as a murder. You’ll have to excuse me, but it seems to me that either you are really mixed up in what a murder is, or in your attempt to draw a parallel between Adolin’s and Kaladin’s killings you are deliberately blurring the meaning of the word murder.
To recap, Szeth came into the war camp to kill Dalinar. By the time Kaladin showed up, Szeth had already killed one High Prince, tossed Dalinar high into the sky to fall back to earth and die, and was about to kill Adolin. So Kaladin engaged him in a fight to the death and, during the fight, killed him (before the retcon). I can’t for the life of me see by what definition you insist that this is a murder.
By contrast, Adolin came upon Sadeas peaceably going about inspecting some of the chambers in the newly discovered Urithiru. So they have a conversation during which Sadeas reveals his intention to bring down Dalinar. Regardless of how evil Sadeas’ intentions are and how provocative Adolin found Sadeas’ words, he had no right to appoint himself jury and executioner and kill Sadeas in cold blood right there. Remember he is a much younger and stronger man than Sadeas, and once he decided to attack Sadeas had no chance. Any way we look at it, that is a murder. More important, Adolin’s own actions show clearly that he knew he had committed a murder and tried his best to lose the evidence.
Bottom line, I don’t mind if you want to argue that Adolin’s action constitute justifiable homicide. But I wish you would stop trying to argue that his killing of Sadeas is comparable to Kaladin’s killing of Szeth.
Braid_Tug @76: hooray and mucho congrats to you. As for the lovely Nora Dusti-Anne, I hope she grows up to be just like her mother.
@88: The difference at the end is Adolin now has the ultimate proof Sadeas could be dealt with in any other way. Up until then, he was willing to believe in his father ways to treat the issues. I am of opinion Dalinar may have still been half convinced they could still persue Sadeas to come to their side, eventually. The Kohlins have also thought Sadeas would grow quiet now he has been proven wrong.
Sadeas’s monologue left no amiguity as to his intetions. Adolin asks him why he is like that to which Sadeas answers he will never change.
It was not until this scene Adolin had proof enough the Sadeas issue could only be dealt with extreme measures.
About Adolin being emotional… The thing with emotional people is not they are unable to think things through or go slowly, it is they have a hard time processing their emotinal response to outside events, especially those falling outside their control. As a result, they get cloated easily as those nasty beasts called emotions pilled themselves one on top of the other until they take all the place. I am afraid his internal cup may remain full for most of book 3 as he has a lot more to process this time around then in WoK.
@91: I will admit I am deliberatly blurring the line as from a spren’s perspective, there is little difference in between the two. Szeth and Sadeas are two acknowledge criminals. Szeth was engaged in evil actions at the time, which is how Kaladin’s actions are justified, true. Althought, if Kaladin had met Szeth walking down the street, calmely and not threatening anyone, he may have kill him still. Would it be murder then?
Sadeas was not doing anything else then gloating, but does a mass murderer need to do more then usher threats to be considered dangerous? Let’s not forget Amaram warned Adolin to keep his mouth shut during the king’s meeting as open threats were considered a serious offense in the Alethi society. Adolin raged about it as he though it unfair a man could allowed to abandon his allies to a sure death on the battlefield, but could not openly threaten another. Purely based on Alethi laws, what Sadeas said at the end is an offense. Was it one warranting death? In itself, probably not, but we go back to what is morality right? Killing a despot to prevent further harm done to innocents or letting him walk free because his hand is not holding a knife at the time?
Adolin may be younger and potentially stronger (In fact we do not know how they ranged one against the other in terms of raw strength. Dalinar most certainly is stronger than Adolin despite being older, so who’s to say how strong Sadeas is? ), but he was covered in bruises and he had a broken wrist. Sadeas may have been older, but he is also a strong, renown warrior of talent and an experienced soldier. No way is he a defenseless weakling. Sadeas had a chance, in fact he nearly over-thrown Adolin.
I never stated Adolin did not commit murder. I am mostly arguing as to why his action should be considered worst than Kaladin. From a legal perspective, we know why, but from a moral perspective and a spren perspective, I am not so sure.
You may think both events are not comparable, but I think they are. Both dealed with a known criminal. Both ended up with the death of said criminals. Only the circumstances are different. Kaladin is a hero, Adolin a criminal. I fail at not seeing the parallel between the two events. I apologize if it annoys you I discuss it so much. I truly do not wish to cause frictions with my personal opinions. I know I can come up forceful at times when I get excited over something.
However, I can stop referring to Kaladin’s actions as “murder” and use the term “killing” instead if it makes my posts easier to read.
@93 Gepeto: I think it’s Sadeas’s declaration where our viewpoints diverge the most. It’s true that this is the first time Sadeas outright confirms that he will continue to work to bring Dalinar down, but I don’t think that really changes anything for Adolin – I think it’s the breaking point because finally Sadeas got through to Adolin – he finally reached him in a vulnerable enough emotional state, with just an ugly enough insult, to make Adolin explode in rage. It pays off on all the foreshadowing when Adolin and Sadeas met after the first Adolin and Shallan date, in the highstorm cafe. To me, Sadeas saying he would take it all from Dalinar was not some ironclad proof that he was evil when before it was more vague – it was just him dropping the pretense and mentioning the ugly truth to Adolin without pretending otherwise (and I don’t mean just from the reader perspective – by this point, Sadeas had basically tried to cripple/murder Adolin with the stunt in the duel, not to mention the assassination attempt). Which was what it took to finally get Adolin to react, and react he did.
At least that’s my interpretation of how it went down.
Personally I’ve tried not to look at it legally or morally, but from the perspective of how it is for Adolin’s character (that’s what’s important for spren right?). Ultimately too much of that scene at the end makes me think that Adolin was goaded into it instead of it being a matter of personal decision/resolve.
No
Spren can be down right ammoral, just as long as you are manifesting the particular virtue they espouse. Syl cared nothing for laws. Wyndle cared nothing for theft or death. Pattern doesn’t care much about honesty. If it doesn’t affect their particular kind of honor, they don’t really care.
Yes, which was my point – there’s a crucial “not” in that sentence that you’re missing. What’s important to me is Adolin’s character and how the act affects him, and the same would be true of any spren that would choose to bond him or not – his character needs to reflect whatever virtue/characteristic they hold most dear.
Sorry the phrasing caused confusion.
I meant no offense. It is interesting to read all of your comments even if I’m too lazy to write my own tomes on the subject. By all means, write on….and on… and on…. and on………
Stormlight, Cellaaaaaar
Right below the WoR Reread,
Their comments, stretching underneeeeeeath.
Stormlight, Cellaaaaaar
Living just to theorize something,
Hiding, somewherrrrre
in the teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeext.
(insert more Journey here, sorry couldn’t keep the rhyme scheme)
::gigglesnort::
I love hanging out in the Storm Cellar. Y’all are great, whether we’re
arguingdebating text interpretation, picking apart motivations, just horsing around… (too bad “Ryshadiuming around” doesn’t have a better ring to it)I keep telling myself I should go read the discussion on 17th Shard re: the text changes… but I’d rather stay here and discuss it. :) Some interesting ties to tomorrow’s chapter. Yay!
@95 ZenBossanova, I would not say that spren are amoral except when it comes to their ‘thing’. Amorality has not been exhibited by any of the spren that we have come to know. Syl, in fact, believes morality and honor to stand above laws. Laws can be discriminatory and even immoral – think of Nazi Germany, and a person’s sense of what is right and honorable takes priority for Syl and, hopefully, us. Pattern approves of both truth and moral or harmless lies. Lies used to persuade people to do the right thing or to prevent harm are not immoral. Wyndle doesn’t approve of either stealing or killing. He bemoans his fate as the designated helper of Lift who steals in order to survive, and who is being pursued by a very powerful foe (Darkness, i.e., Nale). He seeks to understand Lift’s need to help a stranger whose life has apparently been taken. Wyndle is supposed to help Lift, yet she appears determined to risk her life on the outside chance of being able to revive Gawx. He doesn’t interfere with that decision which is intrinsic to Lift’s personality.
Hunny! We haven’t done that for a while… :D
Re: Adolin killing Sadeas…
1) Better analogy: Jasnah killing the four muggers. We know that Jasnah was already a soulcaster through her spren Ivory. She went into the alley intending to kill the muggers. She used her soulcasting directly to kill them — including the last three who were running away when she killed them. She remained a soulcaster afterwards.
So, clearly, Adolin’s killing of Sadeas wouldn’t stop him from becoming an Elsecaller. He’s still a potential Radiant.
2) Morally, Adolin’s situation is similar to Jasnah’s, with a similarly murky and mixed morality depending on what moral philosophy you start from. He clearly saved lives. Probably hundreds of lives. Possibly millions of lives. But… Journey before Destination. The ends don’t justify the means.
3) Legally, Adolin committed a crime, under Alethi law or under U.S. law, if for some reason you think that’s relevant.
4) Worse, Politically, Adolin has committed an act of war by house Kholin against house Sadeas. That could potentially have massive ramifications, if it becomes publicly proven that he did it.
5) However, Adolin is a powerful lighteyes. Without *proof* that he committed the crime, everyone will just nod knowingly and go on about their business. Just like they did after Sadeas led Dalinar into the massacre. Legally and politically, Adolin is completely in the clear without really, really strong evidence. Fifty darkeyed witnesses would not be sufficient evidence.
Yes, that’s completely awful and wrong, but that’s the reality of Alethkar.
6) Alodin’s personal feelings about what he did are likely to be very important in the next book. I’d guess that this might be what “breaks” him enough to make him ready for a spren. (I’m still holding out hope that he’ll resuscitate the “dead” spren in the shardblade that he talks to before every duel. Think about how the Stormfather would react.)
7) As an interesting aside, under U.S. law, Kaladin is also a murderer. Once Szeth tried to flee and Kaladin chased him down, Kaladin could no longer claim either self-defense or the defense of others. A retreat ends an attack. Under U.S. law. Under Alethi law, he’ll probably get a medal — maybe even a royal boon that he can use to challenge Amaram to a duel to the death — as long as he holds some stormlight to lighten his eyes while he issues the challenge.
tl;dr: House of Sadeas v Adolin Kholin
spren say: Not Guilty (unless you’re Nalan the Merciless)
morals say: Ask Again Later
laws say: Guilty
politics say: This Means War!
Alethkari reality: Respect, bro!
Adolin says: Emo shame spiral time.
Here’s hoping he gets around to talking to his dad about this. You just know Dalinar had to deal with murky moral decisions in the wars to unify Alethkar.
@Gepeto, I hesitate to condone anyone allocating to himself or herself the right to kill another person because the victim threatens to perform in the future an action that the perp would find repugnant or injurious. Adolin is a man and lives among humans. Whether some types of spren would have no issues with his killing of Sadeas is irrelevant, I would think. The issue is whether his society would think what he did was right or proper.
To that end it is instructive to see how the two killings you are comparing would be perceived in-world. Kaladin was considered a hero and a saviour when he came back and announced that he had killed Szeth. He had no reason to hide his action, and every person he knew approved of it. On the other hand, while we have not yet seen the Alethi society’s reaction to Sadeas’ killing, Adolin himself took pains to try and hide what he had done and to give himself an alibi, which suggests clearly that he knew the Alethi society would not consider his actions just or proper.
@102, I disagree about your point #7. Szeth was not merely fleeing. Several times during the fight he broke off the engagement, not to flee, but to try to find Dalinar and kill him. He was absolutely committed to obeying his orders to kill Dalinar, because he believed Mr T’s lie that Kaladin had merely stolen another herald blade and was not a KR. I don’t think there is any doubt that he would have come back to try and kill Dalinar, and perhaps succeeded, if Kaladin had not twarthed Szeth’s every effort to lose Kaladin so he could find Dalinar and kill him. It is only when Kaladin persuaded Szeth that he (Kaladin) was, indeed, a KR that Szeth realized he had been living a lie, that he was not Truthless, and that all the murders he had committed were on his own head. So he chose to leave himself open to Kaladin’s strike (pre retcon) and die. In effect, he committed suicide.
I would bet you anything that, if a terrorist feared throughout the world for many successful assassinations of world leaders made a couple of attempts to kill the US President, and a member of the president’s bodyguard was able to chase off the assassin and kill him, no US jury would find the bodyguard guilty of murder. I bet that he would be given a medal and proclaimed a national hero.
@104-
Even after Dalinar had Oathgated away to Urithuru?
Self-defense and defense of others as a defense requires an imminent threat.
The fact that Szeth was intending to set out on a long journey halfway across the continent to attack Dalinar again doesn’t cut it.
Totally agree that no US jury would convict — I’d say no grand jury would indict and no prosecutor would even try. That’s the distinction I was trying to get at with #3 and #5 — Adolin was guilty under Alethkar law, but under the reality of political warfare he could get away with it, just like Sadeas got away with the Betrayal.
If you’re arguing a law enforcement exemption, you might be right. Certainly a Secret Service agent in pursuit of an assassin has more legal options than a private citizen under the same circumstances.
“The fact that Szeth was intending to set out on a long journey halfway across the continent to attack Dalinar again doesn’t cut it.”
But Kaladin didn’t know how far away it was, or anything about where it might be – he knew only that Szeth knew where Dalinar (probably) was, and that if Szeth made it to Dalinar without Kaladin, Dalinar would be dead. Are you saying Kaladin should just have tried to follow Szeth, and not tried to fight him again until he found his quarry – and only then it would have been okay to fight again?
@103: How on
earthRoshar does it matter that “Adolin lives among humans?” What everyone else says has no bearing whatsoever on morality. If you are in Nazi Germany, does that mean hiding/protecting Jews is morally wrong?Imagine an old friend of yours murdered everyone in your town and got away with it. He has also repeatedly tried to murder you and everyone in your family. You have tried to have them prosecuted and everyone just laughed in your face. And then, after a long, hard day, you meet this old friend, who is now all up in your face about how he is going to murder everyone left in your family. You know he will carry on with the plan, and has a very real chance of success. You also have a chance to stop him right now.
Even if Adolin is somehow not justified in killing Sadeas, surely his emotional state means something? Of course he didn’t black out or forget what happened (which is what is necessary to claim “driven to insanity”).
If anyone here would have the sheer guts to hold off killing Sadeas before Adolin did, let alone when he did, kudos to them.
That said, even Szeth is fifty times the person I will ever be. I certainly don’t have even close to the determination to do what I believe is necessary as Szeth does.
Yeah, one thing I’ll say for Szeth: he had the courage to hold to his convictions in spite of everything – laws, opponents, his own emotions and desires. He was wrong in all ways – but he was also deeply wronged by those who placed the burden of Truthless on him, and by those who made use of his convictions to do a lot of horrendous things without getting their own hands dirty (or risking their own lives, or anything icky like that). I’m not sure if I “hope” to see a redemption arc for Szeth or not – I’ll trust Brandon with the story – but I hold the Stone Shamans and Taravangian at least as much to blame as Szeth, and probably more.
Sadeas did not represent a present danger to the Kholins. Dalinar was clearly the leader of the Alethi refugees in Urithiru, and his visions had proven to be correct rather than signs of mental disease. Moreover, he was needed to provide leadership and guidance in their current dangerous situation. While assassination was not out of question, it would be an undertaking that would more likely bring death to the perpetrators rather than the intended victim. Sadeas and Ialai are ruthless but logical actors. They would not kill in anger if they would have to suffer the same fate. Adolin acted out of long-standing, if understandable, hatred of Sadeas. He acted now under the new conditions of Alethi life rather than before when he was more constrained by Alethi norms. In sum, his killing of Sadeas was understandable but not, to my mind, justifiable. Szeth is a murderer. Excusing, much less praising, his actions as the acts of a dedicated individual could also be used to excuse the murderous actions of those who followed Hitler’s program despite the internal conflict that it caused.
Sadeas just declared war and murder on the Kholins.
In war you don’t wait for the enemy to start shooting, if you can get him first. It was a matter of survival, and of protecting others. He knew that next time, he might not be able to stop him, so he dealt with him immedately.
What he said.
This reminds me of a dumb law that exists in some places in the U.S. (all of the U.S.?) If I am attacked by a dog, I am not allowed to hurt the dog until it actually bites me. No matter how much it growls and salivates, and even if it charges at me, I am not technically acting in self defense until the dog actually bites me. The problem is, the only way to have a chance in a fight against an attack dog is to kick it in the jaw before it bites you. So if I get attacked by a dog, I am either dead or in trouble with the law. Perhaps the Adolin-Sadeas episode is like that.
Edit: Of course Sadeas the dog (my apologies to all dogs I just insulted) has already bitten several times, and has rabies.
@Braid_Tug Congratulations! Maybe you have more reading time now? I always get a bunch of reading done when I have a new baby. I’ve been falling behind the reread myself lately, partially because of a decrease in time spent nursing.
Xaladin@111 Ha! Sadeas as a dog with rabies.
@108 Wetlandernw EXACTLY! every single word.